Is This Discussion Based On Yahweh's Law Or Varying
Human Laws And Customs?
Shalom
Marriage is a covenant,
(Mal. 2:14), a contract wherein (historically) the couple is free to include
anything in it, that is not contrary to law (or custom).
Whose "law (or custom)" are we talking about here? Yahweh's law (or custom)? Or the varying human laws or customs?
I am trying to confine myself to Yahweh's law (or custom), as this ought to be the basis of all human conduct.
A Woman Should Not Be Forced To Marry Any Man
Disagreeable To Her
Yes, Laban was free to
make a covenant with Jacob and require that he NOT marry any additional wives.
Your reasoning on this point is also faulty. Similarly, any woman entering a
marriage today can also, insist that her husband-to-be, also remain monogamous,
or there will be NO MARRIAGE. For a woman to do so, contrary to your
allegation, is NOT VETOING HER HUSBAND'S RIGHT TO MARRY ANOTHER WIFE. She is
VETOING HER OWN MARRIAGE TO HIM, depending on him agreeing to that condition. A
woman does have the right to consent or not to consent to any marriage!
Remember, at the time BEFORE the signing of the Ketubah, SHE IS NOT HIS WIFE,
AND HE IS NOT HER HUSBAND!!! So your premise that wife is vetoing her husband's
right is faulty! As the couple is only in the preliminary stages, yet prior to
marriage. The guy is free to "TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT". If he truly loves
her and wants her to be happy, he will readily agree to the stipulation. If he
doesn't he will go find another woman, who is more desperate to marry that she
will accept him under any conditions. Do you see any problem with that???
Contracts even today work the same way. You see a car you like, you see a home
you like. But if during the negotiations, you don't like the conditions???
Don't sign on the dotted line! And you go somewhere else and buy somewhere
else.
We are in agreement that a woman should not be forced to marry any man proposing to marry her. And she can decline the marriage proposal on any ground she chooses. After all, Yahweh made all human beings with free will, and no one should interfere with that, even a prospective husband.
On What Ground Does A Woman Accept Or Reject A Marriage
Proposal?
The issue here is not whether an unmarried woman has a right to accept or decline a marriage proposal, which she does, but whether the ground that she accepts or declines a marriage proposal is right in Yahweh's eyes!
Is it right for an unmarried woman to restrict her prospective husband from marrying other women? Does she know Yahweh's will for her prospective husband, that she should presumptuously undertake to make restrictions upon him, restrictions that Yahweh has not made upon him? Would she also desire that her prospective husband should undertake to deny her freedoms Yahweh has given her, such as her freedom of choice? Such that she agrees to do EVERYTHING her husband tells her to do once married to him, irrespective of the thing her husband tells her to do, even to violate Yahweh's word?
Whom Do You Love More, Yahweh Or Man?
You see, if the unmarried woman fears (loves) Yahweh more than she fears (loves) man, she will not agree to bind herself to fear (love) man more than she fears (loves) Yahweh, even if that man is her prospective husband soon to become her husband. She will therefore not agree to obey her prospective husband in any matter contrary to Yahweh's word. Her agreement to obey her prospective husband will therefore be limited by a proviso that her husband's word must be compliant with Yahweh's will. If it is not so compliant she is not bound to obey it.
Likewise, a man who fears (loves) Yahweh more than he fears (loves) man, even if that man is his prospective wife, will not undertake to fear (love) man more than he fears (loves) Yahweh. He will therefore not agree to a covenant that would deny him freedoms that Yahweh has given him when such a covenant is potentially contrary to Yahweh's will. He would only enter into such a contract, if his eyes were wide open and seeing, after ascertaining from Yahweh that the proposal in the contract is in harmony with Yahweh's will. But prior to so ascertaining Yahweh's will such a man would not enter into such a contract, lest he find himself to be acting contrary to Yahweh's will.
Therefore, if his prospective wife proposes to him that he undertakes to be monogamous, he can only give her such an undertaking after ensuring that it is Yahweh's will for him to be monogamous, and to so marry his prospective wife. But if Yahweh shows him that it is not Yahweh's will that the man be monogamous, then he must refuse to give his prospective wife such an undertaking. Also, if Yahweh chooses to refrain from giving him an answer - maybe to test how he would behave in such circumstances, he should also not give his prospective wife such an undertaking, lest he later finds out that it was not Yahweh's will for him to become and remain monogamous. Such a man will therefore only give such a woman such an undertaking only once Yahweh has assured him that so giving her that undertaking is not against Yahweh's will.
But the woman who presumes to limit her prospective husband's freedom, without seeking Yahweh's will in the matter, being more concerned about her own desires, rather than Yahweh's desire or will, is surely not submitting herself to Yahweh in this matter. A proposal by such a woman should be rejected by the man, for it is not founded on Yahweh's will, but the woman's will.
Women Who Fear Yahweh Should Be Willing To Be Part Of A
Polygynous Household
Also, seeing that Yahweh has allowed men to be polygynous, women who fear Yahweh, who submit to Yahweh's will, should be prepared to become part of a polygynous household, married to a polygynous husband. Why should a woman refuse to become a wife of a polygynous man, or a potentially polygynous man, yet she is fully aware that Yahweh has given men freedom to become polygynous? Is not such a refusing woman showing her rejection of a particular aspect of Yahweh's law and will? Is not such a woman showing that she is not fully submissive to Yahweh's will? Are we not to love Yahweh more than we love even our own selves, being willing and prepared to comply with Yahweh's will even when it is contrary to our desire and will? Is not this the example the Messiah set for all his followers, agreeing to die and actually dying at a time that he otherwise might have preferred he not die, because it was Yahweh's will for him to so die at that time?
A woman who is fully submissive to Yahweh WILL NOT, acting on her own accord, without Yahweh's direction, attempt to restrict the freedom that Yahweh has given her prospective husband. She will submit herself fully to Yahweh's law and will, including the possibility that Yahweh might eventually will her to be a wife of a polygynous husband, even though at the time she marries the man she is the only wife of that man. Any woman acting contrary to this is not being fully submissive to Yahweh, and by this action shows that she does not love Yahweh more than she loves herself or another entity!
Should Men Submit To Human Laws Outlawing Polygyny?
I have already sent you
an example of an existing restriction on multiple wives as reserved in the
Targums on the book of Ruth. This man willingly accepted this restriction,
which most Hebrew men have done throughout the ages. Today Jewish law usually
follows the law of the land. Paul similarly advises that we obey the governing
authorities, wherein most of the western world, recognizes only monogamous
unions. Sexual intercourse with anyone other than ones legally recognized
spouse is considered to be breaking the law. And in some cases is procutable by
the law. If you would be breaking one of Yah's laws, if you did NOT take more
than one woman as a wife, you might have a point. But, as we both know, no such
law exists!
If I understand you correctly, you appear to be saying that unless Yahweh's law prohibits something, we do not do wrong if we do the thing. Such that as Yahweh has not in his law prohibited men from remaining monogamous, thereby not being polygynous, it is not wrong if men are prohibited from becoming polygynous.
Would The Messiah Have Done Wrong If He Refused To Die
On A Stake?
Is it Yahweh's law that all human beings die on a stake? Seeing that it isn't, would it have been the case that the Messiah would have done no wrong if he had refused to die on the stake? According to your reasoning, the Messiah would have done no wrong if he had refused to die on the stake! If he had refused to die according to Yahweh's word, would you now be having a Saviour?
Did King Saul Do Wrong When He Refused To Comply With
Yahweh's Word To Him?
Is it Yahweh's law that all human beings kill all Amalekites near them, including killing all their cattle, without taking any of this as booty for themselves? Seeing that it isn't, was it the case that king Saul did no wrong when he did not fully comply with Yahweh's word to him? According to your reasoning, Saul did no wrong in that he refused to fully comply with Yahweh's word.
Did
Is it Yahweh's law that all human beings must not turn to look back when
fleeing from a city? Seeing that it isn't, was Lot's wife wrong to turn back to
look at the burning of
Anyone Who Rebels Against Yahweh's Word To That One Does
Wrong
It should therefore be clear that what Yahweh wills for one person is not necessarily what he wills for another person. Yet if the first person disobeys Yahweh's will for him, he has done wrong. He has rebelled from Yahweh's word, a word that Yahweh had not made applicable to all other human beings.
It should therefore be clear that each human being should be compliant with Yahweh's will for him or her, irrespective of whether breaching Yahweh's will for him or her does not breach Yahweh's Law! In other words, each human being should be compliant with Yahweh's will for him or her. Failure to do so, especially when one is aware of Yahweh's will, is rebellion against Yahweh's word.
Saul lost both the Holy Spirit and the kingship of
Seek Yahweh's Will For Your Life And You Shall Find It
And for those not aware of Yahweh's will for them, all they need to do is to sincerely seek Yahweh's will for them and they shall find it. For Yahweh desires that we abide by his will, and therefore sees to it that his submissive servants become aware of his will.
Obey Yahweh's Will For Your Life, Even When Human Law
Decrees Otherwise
Therefore the man whom Yahweh wills to be polygynous must indeed be polygynous, if he is to submit to Yahweh's will for him. He must in this matter obey Yahweh rather than men, even as the apostles obeyed Yahweh in preaching the Messiah's name and not the men (authorities) who forbade them to speak in the Messiah's name! Therefore, following the clear scriptural precedent, including that of the apostles, we must obey Yahweh's will for our lives even when human law decrees otherwise!
Whose Recognition Of Marriage Is Important - Yahweh's Or
Men's?
In the context of recognition of marriage, whose recognition is more important - Yahweh's or men's? If men do not recognise a polygynous marriage, yet Yahweh recognises it, is that polygynous marriage voided? Is it men who join together those who are married in Yahweh's eyes, or is it Yahweh who joins them together? Did marriage originate with men or with Yahweh?
And in the context of sexual intercourse in a polygynous household, such as between a husband and his second or subsequent wife, being procutable by man's law, should one still submit to this law of man? Should one fear to obey Yahweh because one fears the consequences of disobeying man when one obeys Yahweh?
Servants of Yahweh have shown throughout history that where a conflict of laws takes place, between man's law and Yahweh's law, it is Yahweh that they obey. Some of these are Shadrack, Meshack, Abednego, Daniel and the apostles. Yahweh's law is supreme. Servants of Yahweh should therefore be prepared to suffer harm at man's hand due to their faithfulness to Yahweh's law.
The Ketubah Of
The following describes
the bridegroom agreeing/covenanting with his first wife to not take any wives
other than her, from The Ketubah, by Moses Gaster, copyright 1923 pg. 21:
The Ketubah of
...And the total sum
contained in this Ketubah amounts, with the principal and additions of the
gifts and dowry, to 1800 pesas fuertos of good silver as mentioned above.
*****And the Rabbi
Abraham, the bridegroom, took upon himself that he would not marry another
woman in addition except by her consent and with her good will*****
And that he would not
take her from this country to another country without her consent and of her
own free will and that if, God forbid, he marry another woman without her
consent or her good will, then he would divorce her with a proper Get at once.
And this contract shall be binding upon him and shall apply to him in
accordance with the legal strength of the contract applied to the tribe of
Reuben and Gad...
(An additional note, the
bride-groom, also vowed NOT to move her to another country in this contract,
which she was at liberty to ask of him and he was at liberty to vow to her. Do
you have a problem with this???)
Is Divorce On Unscriptural Grounds Valid Before Yahweh?
Consider the following.
What if the man in this Ketubah was the Abraham of Genesis, and his prospective wife was the Sarah of Genesis, and the Sarah of Genesis refused to move with Abraham when Yahweh required Abraham to move to a different country! Would that refusal have been sufficient ground before Yahweh's eyes for Sarah obtaining a divorce? Does Yahweh free a wife from her marriage union simply because her husband did not comply with a term the wife put in her Ketubah, a term not among the scriptural grounds permitting divorce?
A Man Should Retain His Freedom Of Action With Respect
To Marriage
My point is that a man does not know the entirety of Yahweh's will for him for the rest of his life at the time he first marries. He does not know what Yahweh may or may not require of him in the future. He must therefore not, as I have explained above, act in a manner that MIGHT not be compliant with Yahweh's will for him. Where he is unsure he should seek Yahweh's will in the matter. And where Yahweh delays to answer him in the matter, he must not act to restrict his freedom until such time as Yahweh answers him.
Since the Abraham of Genesis did not know at the time he proposed to marry Sarah that Yahweh would require him to leave Chaldea and go and live in the land of the Canaanites, it would have been imprudent of him to have agreed to such a Ketubah as Rabbi Abraham did. And if he did agree to such a Ketubah, and Yahweh instructed him to leave Chaldea for Canaan, then he simply should have left Chaldea as he did, for the agreement he made in the Ketubah was voided by Yahweh, as it was not in harmony with Yahweh's will! And if Sarah would have tried to argue that Abraham was breaching the Ketubah, he should simply have responded that the Ketubah was invalid before Yahweh's eyes, having been voided by Yahweh, on account of it not being in harmony with Yahweh's will for Abraham's household! And seeing that Yahweh has not given such a ground as the husband moving to another country without his wife's permission/acquiescence as valid for divorce, even if the agreement was entered into prior to marriage, no divorce would have taken place in Yahweh's recognition.
One should therefore be careful not to enter into a pre-nuptial agreement that MAY fall foul of Yahweh's will. If unsure that it may be against Yahweh's will, one should not enter into it. One should instead ask Yahweh for his guidance and answer. One should be careful to act within Yahweh's answer, if Yahweh answers one. And where Yahweh delays to answer, one should still not enter into such a pre-nuptial agreement, until such time as Yahweh answers. If the prospective wife cannot wait for Yahweh's answer, and insists on restricting her prospective husband's freedom that Yahweh has granted him, then she shows herself not to be fully submissive to Yahweh's will, desiring to impose her will on the situation. If the man loves Yahweh more than he loves his prospective wife, he should NOT marry her. For those who love other human beings more than Yahweh are not worthy of Yahweh!
Is A Woman Who Presumes To Limit Her Husband's Freedom Acting
In Compliance With Yahweh's Will?
Therefore I have shown
you examples of the clause in the marriage contract, wherein the husband agrees
that he will not take other wives. By having one's husband to be, abide by this
stipulation, the woman is NOT VIOLATING ANY BIBLICAL LAW! So you are WRONG on
this point as well! Yah's law is not violated by this agreement! Remember the
story of Ruth, there is even the option to decline a second wife, even where
the law at that time would permit it!
My comments above have extensively answered and refuted the notion you are promulgating here!
YOU have failed to show
me scripturally where an unbetrothed, unmarried woman (or her agent/father)
does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to make such a stipulation in her marriage contract, as
we have scriptural, and multiple historic evidence that these stipulations
existed. Jacob was NEVER condemned for agreeing to such, was he??
My previous communication on the agreement between Laban and Jacob, and my comments above, have addressed this matter you raise here. Jacob's action was not against Yahweh's will for Jacob. But that does not necessarily mean that a similar action by another man would be in harmony with Yahweh's will for that man. I think I also gave you the example of King David. The point is that each person should act faithfully according to Yahweh's will for that person, and not violate it. If Yahweh wills you to be single, remain single. If Yahweh wills you to be monogamous, become and remain monogamous. If Yahweh wills you to be polygynous, become polygynous. Each person should do what Yahweh wills for him or her, and should not violate what Yahweh wills for him or her.
Do Not Cause Another Person To Breach Yahweh's Will
Also, one should not act to cause another person to violate Yahweh's will for the other person. Such as would be the case whereby a prospective wife seeks to prevent a single man from ever becoming polygynous while she was married to him, and Yahweh wills that the single man eventually become polygynous during the lifetime of this woman. I think I gave you the example of Adam and Eve extolling this principle, of not causing another person to breach Yahweh's will for that person.
Is The Production Of Children The Only Purpose For
Marriage?
(By the way, Jacob took
on four women and only got 12 children out of the deal. Many families have 12
children from only one mother! So what did he gain in doing so, but a lot of
strife in his home? Most of these polygynous men did not have an exceptional
number of children either! More on this point later.)
Is the production of children the only ground for marriage? If it were so, then there would have been no need for marriage, whether monogamous or polygynous. For children can be and are produced from sexual intercourse between those who are not married.
Also, children come by Yahweh's grace or permission. Where Yahweh has shut wombs, no children are produced, however much humans try.
Is Strife The Preserve Of Polygynous Households?
And is strife the preserve only of polygynous households? Did the striving twin brothers Esau and Jacob, sons of Isaac and Rebekkah, come from a polygynous household? It is a fallacy for one to try to portray strife as being the preserve of polygynous households. Strife occurs in both monogamous and polygynous households. If one is arguing against polygynous households because strife occurs in them, such a one should also argue against monogamous households, because strife also occurs in monogamous households! In fact, such a one might as well argue against any human set-up where strife occurs, including arguing against the human race!
Without scriptural
basis, or historic documentation or evidence, YOUR whole position has NO MERIT
WHATSOEVER! You are rearranging furniture on the TITANAIC! Your whole lifestyle
would come crashing down if the women who you influence knew the TRUTH! Your
POLYGYNOUS lifestyle is based solely on a lack of knowledge, regarding marriage
and covenants, and misinterpretation of Biblical law. YOU have NO RIGHT to take
THIS RIGHT away from women who are not yet betrothed. If you think you do,
WHAT/WHERE ARE YOUR SCRIPTURES????
I have shown you several scriptures and commented extensively on the current subject matter. Yet several of my scriptural questions and comments have gone unanswered. Yet you still ask me for my scriptures? Simply review what I have written and answer the various scriptural matters that I have raised. You seem to be skirting over them. They do not disappear simply because you have not commented on them.
To reiterate, no human being should seek to restrict the Yahweh-given right of another human being, such as freedom of choice. No human being should seek to cause another human being to act in a manner that would be contrary to Yahweh's will. No human being should act contrary to Yahweh's will for that human being. Where one does not know Yahweh's will in a situation, one should seek Yahweh's will for that situation. When Yahweh informs one of his will, one should be compliant with it. When Yahweh delays to inform one of his will, one should not impatiently take action irrespective of the outcome of Yahweh's will. For so impatiently acting is a manifestation of a failure to fully submit to Yahweh's will. One should instead wait for Yahweh's answer when Yahweh chooses to give it.
Are The Questioner's Views The Truth About Polygyny?
Why don't you show them
this clause that went in the ancient marriage contracts, (I have several others
as well), limiting the husband's-to-be, to one wife, and give these poor
uninformed women the option as to what THEY WOULD LIKE in their marriage
contracts? Or are you afraid that they would revolt and that would be the end
of your polygynous lifestyle??
But, most likely you
won't show any of your women this information which will give them the TRUTH
ABOUT POLYGYNY, letting them see for themselves, that historically, the wife to
be DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO A MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGE by contract/prenuptial
agreement, since undoubtedly YOU [would] prefer to keep them in ignorance and
bondage!
Why Uphold Human Traditions Contrary To Yahweh's Word?
At the beginning of this email I commented to the effect that I try to confine myself to Yahweh's law (or customs), and not human laws or customs. You see, human laws and customs are quite often at variance with Yahweh's law or word.
You have now given me two examples of Ketubahs. I have commented on both. This last one of Rabbi Abraham is seen to be faulty on the grounds that I have already discussed above. Yet these human traditions are the things you uphold, rather than upholding the principles we derive from Yahweh's law and word. You appear to elevate human tradition above even principles derived from Yahweh's word. You are teaching for doctrine the precepts of men.
You are squarely in the category of Pharisees and scribes that Yah'shuah lambasted in Mark 7:1-13. Those who honour Yah with their lips, but whose hearts are far from him. Who worship him in vain, teaching for doctrines the precepts of men. Leaving the commandment of the Mighty One, and holding fast the tradition of men.
Why Should I Encourage Women To Revolt Against Yahweh's
Pure Word?
Why should I uphold the very things and practices that the Messiah spoke out against? Why should I encourage women to "revolt" from Yah's pure word? Leading them instead to your corrupted traditions - corrupted because they are not fully in harmony with Yahweh's word?
I stand by the Messiah, and not by traditionalists who reject Yahweh's word in order to uphold their tradition, even a tradition of rebelling against Yahweh's will!
Since you have set
yourself up as a teacher, you need to be aware that YOU HAVE TO ANSWER TO
YAHWEH TO YOUR FALSE TEACHING AND WITHHOLDING TRUTH FROM THOSE WHO
UNFORTUNATELY LOOK TO YOU FOR TEACHING. You are learning the truth now about
this POLYGYNOUS lifestyle, so you now have NO EXCUSE!!! Those who you have
misled, deceived must be sought out and told the truth, or you will answer to
Yah for it on that great day!
If my teaching is false, and I am intentionally withholding truth from those looking to me for teaching, then I will indeed have to answer to Yahweh. But if what I have said is true, and I have withheld from them error, will it not be you who will then be answerable to Yahweh?
I have put several issues to you. You have skirted over a number, not addressing the truth contained in them. Instead you continue to uphold human traditions not fully compliant with Yahweh's will. Why?
If you have a submissive heart, submissive to Yahweh, you will repent of your rebellion. I pray and hope you do.
ISAAC
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